1. Tao

The Tao that can be known is not Tao.
The substance of the World is only a name for Tao.
Tao is all that exists and may exist;


The World is only a map of what exists and may exist.
One experiences without Self to sense the World,
And experiences with Self to understand the World.
The two experiences are the same within Tao;
They are distinct only within the World.
Neither experience conveys Tao
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the World.






The Dao De Jing, along with the Zhuangzi is one of the core texts of the Chinese way of thinking known as "Daoism". This word has a number of meanings. In these early texts Daosm is manifest as a sophisticated view of the world which mediates on the nature of the world. There is a common disapproval of the unnatural and artificial. Social convention is rejected in favour of the ecstatic and the immediate nature of experience. Later on Daoism alo cam to signify the large number of popular cults that exist in China (so-called "popular Daoism"). Although Daoism is often set in opposition to Confucianism, both ways of thinking interacted with each other. It should also be noted that although Ch'an Buddhism [or Zen Buddhism] is usually seen as a variant of Mahayana Buddhism, in many respects it draws on Daoist ideas.

There are many ways of translating the Dao De Jing. This selection here is drawn from an interpolation of various translations by Peter A. Merel (pete@extro.su.oz.au) based upon the translations of: Lin Yutang, Ch'u Ta-Kao, Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, Richard Wilhelm and Aleister Crowley.

From Chinese Cultural Studies: Dao De Jing Tao Te Ching: Selections
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-ex.html

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jb

Quote:

the translations of: Lin Yutang, Ch'u Ta-Kao, Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, Richard Wilhelm and Aleister Crowley

if this Lin Yutang is the same here : http://chinaknowledge.de/

you have to be cautious because his translation are not very good even if he is Chinese.

If Aleister Crowley is this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

you have to be even more cautious because his trnaslations are probably bias.

If you want good, scientific translation of the Chinese classics, take a look here :


http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=bienvenue

the texts are in Chinese, English AND (for Alain et Isabelle) in French

I moved this thread to offtopic. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

Tao is way ancient Chinese tried to explain nature . I don't think few quotes can elaborate such concept.

Daoism is part of Taijiquan as much as it is part of the Chinese culture.
The Journal of Asian Martial Arts this month has an in depth article (at least 10 pages!) on the relationship between Daoism and Taijiquan.

http://www.goviamedia.com/store.php?crn=205

alain wrote:

Daoism is part of Taijiquan as much as it is part of the Chinese culture. The Journal of Asian Martial Arts this month has an in depth article (at least 10 pages!) on the relationship between Daoism and Taijiquan. http://www.goviamedia.com/store.php?crn=205

Dear alain, I signed in at The Journal of Asian Martial Arts site, but it seems I can't read the article without paying for it. Perhaps I haven't got the hang of the site.

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jb

andrey wrote:

I moved this thread to offtopic. I'm not really sure what to make of it. Tao is way ancient Chinese tried to explain nature. I don't think few quotes can elaborate such concept.

Dear andrey, I'm not really sure what to make of it either. That's why I put it on the discussion board. Perhaps others will elucidate.

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jb

Tao is the base of Taiji:

What is in the end to be shrunk
Must first be stretched.
Whatever is to be weakened
Must begin by being made strong.
What is to be overthrown
Must begin by being set up.
He who would be a taker
Must begin as a giver.
This is called “dimming” one's light.
It is thus that the soft overcomes the hard
And the weak, the strong.
“It is best to leave the fish down in his pool;
Best to leave the State's sharpest weapons wherenone can see them.

http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing&no=36

(this website gives different translation and the Chinese text)

Zhuang zi gives concrete application of breathing

http://www.goodhealthways.com/?p=17

Maria wrote:

What is in the end to be shrunk Must first be stretched. Whatever is to be weakened Must begin by being made strong.

Dear Maria, thanks for elucidating.

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jb

here is an intersting text about taiji and taoism :

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/tao-chi.html

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/taoism.html

Maria wrote:

here is an intersting text about taiji and taoism : http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/tao-chi.html http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/taoism.html

Although the Internet is a good source of information I wouldn't rely on it all the time. Unfortunately a lot of people try to express their own points of views without reasonable support of actual facts. For example, claim in the first link just doesn't follow... As my former university professor used to like to say :" there is not enough evidence to support the claim that "one can see these influences (of softness and effortlessness) in the names of certain movements in the Tai Chi Form"

Most likely the truth lays in simplicity. Many people in Chenjiagou were illiterate as millions of others farmers around ancient China. The only way they could pass the knowledge of martial art is mostly though the oral traditions. Because of that many old taijiquan masters created mini poems or song which was very easy to memorize and pass to next generation.
Those poem may not sound as smooth in English but they definitely sound better in Chinese!

For example Chen style has a lot of names: Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar "Jin Gung Dao Dui ", Lazy About Tying the Coat "Lan Zha Yi", Stepping Forward Three Steps "Shang San Bu"and others. There are no sign of Taosism here but rather reasonable way to remember posture names which in addition has rhythmic Chinese vowels combination.

Maria wrote:

here is an intersting text about taiji and taoism: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/tao-chi.html http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/taoism.html

Thanks, Maria, this is a very good site. It covers a lot of things I'm interested in, especially the Chinese concern with numbers, alchemy, talismanic symbols, magic, astrology, astronomy, Taoism, Ch'an Buddhism, contemplation, meditation, nature and animals -- and their symbolic appearance in the taiji forms.

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jb

andrey wrote:

There are no sign of Taosism here but rather reasonable way to remember posture names which in addition has rhythmic Chinese vowels combination.

It makes sense for Chen postures to borrow from Shaolin, given the proximity of the temple and the fact that early Taiji in Chen village comes from warriors. They learned their skill from others, most likely Shaolin warrior/monks.

It is very clear for example for "Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar". Buddha warriors at that time were Shaolin monks. There is still a place in Shaolin Temple where monks perform a form that contains this exact same pounding, always in the same spot, so the stone is worn out.

Also, Taiji is not just Chen. Other styles like Wu borrow a lot from Wudang Mountain and its Daoist monks. Qigong and other internal arts existed way before Chen. Forms like Yi Jin Ching have more than a thousand years existence.

We cannot dismiss Daoism and Confucianism influence on _every_ aspect of Chinese culture more than we can dismiss Christianism influence on our Western societies.

Alain, Wu style has come from Yang taiji not Wudang. Shaolin didn't share its art with anyone at the time. So there is a small chance only. In turn, Taosists affected taiji in other ways, more phylosophical conceptual .

Here is little clarification. There are two styles Wu - nothern and southern.
Here how it goes. Chen Changxing 14th generation of Chen masters taught Yang Luchan - the first outsider of Chen village who had been passed the knowledge. Later Yang Luchan created Yang style. His son Yang Panhou taught Wu Quanyou. So Wu style was founded. Finaly Wu style split on northern and southern after Wu Jianquan.

andrey wrote:

Alain, Wu style has come from Yang taiji not Wudang.

Wu has borrowed from the early Yang, which what closer to the Chen than it is now. Jesse pointed out many times the influence of Daoist exercises in Wu. Daoists have a lot of internal exercices for self healing.
BTW, traditional Wu is a beautiful form, one of my favorites. You should try it

andrey wrote:

Shaolin didn't share its art with anyone at the time. So there is a small chance only.

How do you know? Shaolin has Jin Gang Quan internal forms. I can't stop making the connection. Jin Gang Dao Dui is the same exact posture in Shaolin and Chen, I can't dismiss that evidence.

andrey wrote:

In turn, Taosists affected taiji in other ways, more phylosophical conceptual .

Pretty important stuff if you ask me! Taoists had internal exercises before Taiji was formalized.
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