The Tai Chi Healthways Discussion Board

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

Unlike fixed step flexible step push hands allow opponent to retreat quickly at any sigh of danger. Sometimes I think it's even tempting and easier instead of using proper body reaction just retreat back. However, in this situation seems like neither party will learn much..So if for example during flexible push hands my opponent constantly retreat without giving me possibility to create situation and lock him before stepping forward, would the only solution will be to move faster than him? In other words, as he retreats I will have to close in faster (than his retreat), lock him, and then make extra step to uproot him?

alain · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 65 Location: San Diego, CA

I'll venture an answer. I have limited experience of flexible step (yet).

I can't help quoting Sun Tzu's Art of War:

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

Also, I think that direct attack doesn't work that easily in flexible steps because of the contact with the opponent. We can't rely on speed that much.

What do you think?

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

alain wrote:

Also, I think that direct attack doesn't work that easily in flexible steps because of the contact with the opponent. We can't rely on speed that much.

What do you think?

Interesting, but I think not quite applicable in situation when your opponent is passive. If for example, I prefer keep distance from you, there is nothing you can do about bridging my defense unless you have a speed advantage.

You can put in perspective of yin in yang. Passive retreat is Yin, fast advance is Yang.

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

andrey wrote:

alain wrote:

Also, I think that direct attack doesn't work that easily in flexible steps because of the contact with the opponent. We can't rely on speed that much.

What do you think?

I prefer keep distance from you, there is nothing you can do about bridging my defense unless you have a speed advantage.

There are other options, Andrey. If someone is being very passive and unwilling to engage, I agree, it is hard to go much farther.

Next try, "locking" or trap them first before moving in ... that way, when they try to retreat, they can't without first dealing with what you have set up for them.

"Locking" or trapping doesn't mean qin na, it can be as simple as an angle that is difficult to deal with or a position that causes them to move in a way that isn't straight backwards. This sort of "locking" or trapping is done with the footwork used. "Locking" or trapping the legs in this way is usually harder for someone to deal with, but locking or trapping the upper body in some way can be effective.

Practicing the third - fifth levels (of the 5 levels of Chen Taijiquan) patterns are a great way to learn these sort of things. Smile

Here's a clip of Wang Xian practicing third level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znVWJ4PmURw

A clip of fourth level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0UE-FnwN-U&feature=related

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

Wow Jim we are really in sync! I just downloaded this Wan Xian video few days ago for the same reason you explained me Smile

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

andrey wrote:

Wow Jim we are really in sync! I just downloaded this Wan Xian video few days ago for the same reason you explained me Smile

If you are interested, I have the complete tapes (two tapes) of Wang Xian, where these Youtube clips are taken. They are in Japanese but very interesting. Smile

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

feihu wrote:

If you are interested, I have the complete tapes (two tapes) of Wang Xian, where these Youtube clips are taken. They are in Japanese but very interesting. Smile

Yes I'm interested Jim, but for my shame I have no VHS player anymore:(

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

andrey wrote:

feihu wrote:

If you are interested, I have the complete tapes (two tapes) of Wang Xian, where these Youtube clips are taken. They are in Japanese but very interesting. Smile

Yes I'm interested Jim, but for my shame I have no VHS player anymore:(

But I do! You are welcome to come over to the house anytime you are free to view the videos ...

If I can figure how to do it, I can make you a DVD of the tapes. Angie is the tech person in the family, but she is working now and doesn't have that much free time (and I don't want to commit her to doing something without asking her first!).

alain · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 65 Location: San Diego, CA

andrey wrote:

If for example, I prefer keep distance from you, there is nothing you can do about bridging my defense unless you have a speed advantage.

That's where the "deception" part comes in. Smile

You are right, if you prefer to keep distance, I can't bridge the gap on my own will (with force and speed). I will have to appear weaker, make you think you have an opportunity.

The few times I played with Master Tsao, that's how it works: with a good "repel the monkey" stepping, I'm able to avoid most of his attacks. But when I try to attack, that's when he gets me 100% of the time.

That's what Sun Tzu says: if the ennemy is stronger, evade him. Buy appearing weaker, people will try to attack and put themselves in danger.

I haven't watched the videos yet, but it seems it's what Jim means also when he says you have to trap the opponent.

My 2 cents.

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

Alain you may be interested in Chen Zhaokui outlook:

Avoid Being Passive

In war, the priority is to wipe out the enemy, to preserve oneself is only secondary. Only by defeating the enemy can one effectively preserve himself. For example, your opponent is taller and moves fast. To make things worse, you are not as good as he is. Obviously, you are at a disadvantage. If you decide to handle the opponent by putting up a defense, you will give him more initiative, letting him take full advantage of his strong points. The outcome cannot be anything but certain defeat. So from the very beginning you should attack first without a warning and from all directions. Every strike should be fast and powerful, leaving him no chance to counterattack and making it impossible for him to use his advantages. Then you may possibly turn the situation around and win a victory from a very likely defeat.

This is not a good direct translation of Chen Zhaokui words. In out application classes Jesse showed one of the practical application of that approach when you create situation, deceive, bridge and attack.

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

feihu wrote:

But I do! You are welcome to come over to the house anytime you are free to view the videos ...

If I can figure how to do it, I can make you a DVD of the tapes. Angie is the tech person in the family, but she is working now and doesn't have that much free time (and I don't want to commit her to doing something without asking her first!).

That would be great Jim, thanks!

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 164

Chen Xiao Wang teaches pushhands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsyMEUKIvjc&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85ARLul9h8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw&feature=related

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

The last video Maria is his son Chen Ziqiang

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 164

Thank you, I knew he was not Chen Xiao Wang, but I didn't know he was his son Cool

Chen Xiao Wang is easy to recognise

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

andrey wrote:

The last video Maria is his son Chen Ziqiang

That is Chen Xiaoxing's eldest son. Chen Xiaoxing is Chen Xiaowang's younger brother. Chen Ziqiang is the head coach at the Chen Taijiquan school in Chenjiagou.

An FYI, there was an attempt to bring Ziqiang to the US in Feb., but his visa was denied. There are hopes to bring him here later this year (summer?). His father, Chen Xiaoxing, will be coming to the US in May and Chen Xiaowang will be here in late summer or early fall (to be decided soon). They all will be stopping in San Diego, I will keep this forum informed as more information becomes available.