The Tai Chi Healthways Discussion Board

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 163

andrey wrote:

Maria wrote:

here is an intersting text about taiji and taoism :

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/tao-chi.html

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/taoism.html

Although the Internet is a good source of information I wouldn't rely on it all the time. .... As my former university professor used to like to say :" there is not enough evidence to support the claim that "one can see these influences (of softness and effortlessness) in the names of certain movements in the Tai Chi Form"

. Many people in Chenjiagou were illiterate as millions of others farmers around ancient China. The only way they could pass the knowledge of martial art is mostly though the oral traditions. Because of that many old taijiquan masters created mini poems or song which was very easy to memorize and pass to next generation...

There are no sign of Taosism here but rather reasonable way to remember posture names which in addition has rhythmic Chinese vowels combination.

First : you are right when you say internet is a good source but to take carefully. The links I provide are links that seem , after a first reading ,interesting

Second, no offense intented, but be careful with "illeterate farmers". We are so used to rely to scripture that we forget knowledges may be transmitted just orally without any changes through time.

For example : texts and picture of qigong exercises have been discovered in Tomb no. 3 at Mawangdui, dating from 168 BC, and lay hidden in Changsha, Hunan for over 2000 years : the same exercises, or almost the same, we do now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts

Maybe the names of the taiji form, in themselves are not directly related to taoïsm like "lazy about tying the coat".

My professor at the University says that Zhuangzi is the practical aplication of Laozi. When you read Zhuangzi and practice taiji there are similarities.

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

Dear Maria, Andrey, Alain & Feihu, excellent dialogue. From my experience, this exchange of views encapsulates our present state of incomplete knowledge. Here we all are, sitting in front of computers, looking up wikipedia, comparing our own experience, and stating what feels right for us.

I suspect that the reason we find taiji & qigong so fascinating is that it contains many truths which resonate in our deep subconscious mind, like myths and fairy tales.

_________________
jb

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 230

alain wrote:

How do you know? Shaolin has Jin Gang Quan internal forms. I can't stop making the connection. Jin Gang Dao Dui is the same exact posture in Shaolin and Chen, I can't dismiss that evidence.

I've read some research papers on this issue and asked some people who did similar research in Chenjiagou. Right now Shaolin has become very commercialized. For that reason they claim that Shaolin has originated taijiquan, which is false. So summarizing statements above, there is small chance that Shaolin affected Chen style, but there still not enough evidence to say so

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 230

Maria wrote:

Second, no offense intented, but be careful with "illeterate farmers". We are so used to rely to scripture that we forget knowledges may be transmitted just orally without any changes through time.

For example : texts and picture of qigong exercises have been discovered in Tomb no. 3 at Mawangdui, dating from 168 BC, and lay hidden in Changsha, Hunan for over 2000 years : the same exercises, or almost the same, we do now.

Maria you are confusing scholars with farmers. Chenjagou is a village and most of the people up there were farmers. Even Chen Wangting was farming when he retired. And yes 90% of them were illiterate including many famous Chen masters.

Quote:

Maybe the names of the taiji form, in themselves are not directly related to taoïsm like "lazy about tying the coat".

Most likely !

Quote:

My professor at the University says that Zhuangzi is the practical aplication of Laozi. When you read Zhuangzi and practice taiji there are similarities.

Human have only two legs and two hands, so what else can we do? For example, a punch in Chen style looks exactly as the punch in many other external styles, so now we can assume that they borrowed it from Chen or vise versa ?

In Lun Hu Quan we had a lot of similar moves as Chen style, but my former style really has nothing to do with taijiquan; therefore, there is no direct link just a similarity of moves, body mechanics nothing else.

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

andrey wrote:

Maria you are confusing scholars with farmers. Chenjagou is a village and most of the people up there were farmers. Even Chen Wangting was farming when he retired. And yes 90% of them were illiterate including many famous Chen masters.

Andrey is correct. Chen Bing (20th generation and nephew to CXW and CXX) is the first Chen "master" to my knowledge to attend the university from Chenjiagou. In fact, to my knowledge, he was the first Chen from Chenjiagou to attend the university, period.

The folks in Chenjiagou are farmers. That is still true. Many remain illiterate, including some very famous "masters". No doubt about them being farmers or not being scholars. If you have ever visited Chenjiagou you'd agree, that is of course unless things have changed there since I last visted a year ago, which I doubt.

It might be hard to tell from the following clip, but if you have never seen what Chenjiagou looks like, take a look in the background behind CXX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwDUqtXLGc8

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 163

do you mean that farmers, even illeterate , cannot transmit oral knowledges Question

I am sorry but I cannot agree with you

please read this study for Africa where there is no scripture :

http://www.ifla.org/IV/ifla65/65mb-e.htm

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 230

Maria wrote:

do you mean that farmers, even illeterate , cannot transmit oral knowledges Question

I am sorry but I cannot agree with you

please read this study for Africa where there is no scripture :

http://www.ifla.org/IV/ifla65/65mb-e.htm

Maria ,
You are confusing cause and effect. Africa has nothing to do with the scope of our conversation. If you want to discuss African history I will be glad to do so because I took one semester of African history in the university from Dr. Reuben Omweri Mekenye (native African) and wrote several research papers. However, we can do it in different thread.

Now e are talking about Chen village and in particular about Chen style taijiquan over there.

Illiterate means people in Chenjiagou couldn't read or write, so the only way to transmit the knowledge was peer to peer or oral traditions.
Chen Xin was among few Chenjiagou natives who could write and read. However, his gongfu skills were not as good as his "illiterate brothers".

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 163

sorry, my English is not as good as I'd like it to be Embarassed

Weren't we discussing about

1. the name of the form and taoïsm
2. taoïsm and its influence on taij
3. the possibility to transmit knowledges orally and not only through scripture ?

1. What about the names of the form I agree with you when you say some of them are a simple mnemonic

2. Don't you think that knowledges, even complex ones, can be transmitted orally ?

feihu · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 79

Maria wrote:

do you mean that farmers, even illeterate , cannot transmit oral knowledges Question

I am sorry but I cannot agree with you

No reason to be sorry! And no one said you had to agree with me. Wink

I didn't say anything about oral transmissions, only that folks in Chenjiagou are not scholars, but farmers. Don't try to put words into my mouth, please.

Alain mentioned the word "warrior" when referring to where Chen style came from, in one of his posts. I almost responded to that term, as Chen Wangting was a solider and therefore could be called a "warrior". But most of the people in Chenjiagou were never warriors or soliders, but simple farm folk, who used their martial art to protect themselves and their families.

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

Wu wei & Wu bu wei

It should be noted that in Taoism the complementary part of "non-action" ("Wu wei") is "non-left-undone" ("Wu bu wei"). Taoism should be viewed as advocating the harmonization of "passivity" and "activity/creativity" instead of just being passive. In other words through stillness and receptivity natural intuition guides us in knowing when to act and when not to act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

_________________
jb

Maria · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 163

Tai Chi Chuan and the code of life

By Graham Horwood. A Jungian analyst and Yang stylist with over 30 years of martial arts training, Horwood writes about the philosophical aspects of T’ai Chi Ch’uan with emphasis on Taoism and the I Ching as well as traditional Chinese medicine. He discusses the eight bagua trigrams, the five elements, breathing and qigong. Paperback. 183 pp. 8 3/8 X 10 7/8.

http://www.tai-chi.com/wproduct.php?id=354

I haven't read this book, but maybe could it be interesrting.

Isabelle · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

Maria wrote:

Tai Chi Chuan and the code of life

By Graham Horwood.
http://www.tai-chi.com/wproduct.php?id=354

I haven't read this book, but maybe could it be interesrting.

You can get a feel for this book on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Chuan-Code-Life/dp/0938045385/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203108511&sr=8-1

It looks interesting, hopefully not too "psychologic" ... Smile

Thanks Maria,
--isabelle