The Tai Chi Healthways Discussion Board

He who has little · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 2

I am usually very busy and find it hard to practice. I have studied various kinds of martial arts and know alot of forms. I want to improve my forms and my technique. Does anyone else have this problem and what are some of the solutions you have found?

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

He who has little wrote:

I am usually very busy and find it hard to practice. I have studied various kinds of martial arts and know alot of forms. I want to improve my forms and my technique. Does anyone else have this problem and what are some of the solutions you have found?

I think it's better to know one form good than many forms bad. Everyone has problem with free time, if you are willing to invest in your gongfu you can always find time between your job and family. My guess it would be practice very early in the moring or very late at night. After all Chen Manching said "10 minutes of tai chi better than 10 minutes of sleep" Smile

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

He who has little wrote:

I am usually very busy and find it hard to practice. I have studied various kinds of martial arts and know alot of forms. I want to improve my forms and my technique. Does anyone else have this problem and what are some of the solutions you have found?

Hullo HWHL

Have you thought about teaching a course once a week?

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jb

He who has little · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 2

That is true~ i want to do my best in all my forms. I see alot of movements thats are similar in tai chi to Gung fu, kempo, wu shu.
What forms would you suggest has a wide variety of movments that can bedone in a short amount of time to help me imporove all my forms?

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

He who has little wrote:

That is true~ i want to do my best in all my forms. I see alot of movements thats are similar in tai chi to Gung fu, kempo, wu shu.
What forms would you suggest has a wide variety of movments that can bedone in a short amount of time to help me imporove all my forms?

Dear HWHL,

I don't know anything about Kempo so I'll just talk about taiji & qigong.

Speed
The Yang 24 can be done in 4 minutes or 240 seconds. If you look at the book Taijiquan by Li Deyin, you'll see that he breaks each stance down to 4-5 key movements, so infact Yang 24 is actually 135 movements. That's 1.7 seconds per movement. The form can be done quickly. Say you took 0.5 seconds per movement, you could complete the form in 67.5 seconds while you were waiting for the kettle to boil.

Variety of Forms
The 42-Step Taijiquan style (1989) belongs to no specific school, having been drawn from various Taiji styles, and is referred to as 'Comprehensive Taijiquan.' According to Li Deyin: "It complies with competition rules on number and combinations of techniques and stances, technical standards and time limits. It contains representative movements of different styles of taiji [Yang, Wu, Sun, Chen, 88-step, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan & 48 step] and requires athletes to demonstrate an overall command of skills." There are 206 movements.

_________________
jb

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

He who has little wrote:

That is true~ i want to do my best in all my forms. I see alot of movements thats are similar in tai chi to Gung fu, kempo, wu shu.
What forms would you suggest has a wide variety of movments that can bedone in a short amount of time to help me imporove all my forms?

HWHT it's a interesting question. When I was practicing Lun Hu Quan I could use only 10% of techniques during full contact fights. It's pretty much implies
that all the forms I learnt where not that great after all.

If you think about the form by itself than you probably realize that it designed to develop muscle memory for certain motor skills. The ultimate test of the form would be its application in real fight. In turn, each form vary from school to school. Some forms are similar to another and some not. Taijiquan form belongs to internal school method - meaning you have to develop certain body conditions which way different from external style of gongfu, kempo, karate and others, so I just don't see how you can
improve all of your forms at once with help of taijiquan.

alain · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 65 Location: San Diego, CA

He who has little wrote:

That is true~ i want to do my best in all my forms. I see alot of movements thats are similar in tai chi to Gung fu, kempo, wu shu.
What forms would you suggest has a wide variety of movments that can bedone in a short amount of time to help me imporove all my forms?

It all depends on your expectations Smile

We tend to forget that the most enjoyable is the path, not the final goal. You have to do something that you enjoy and makes you feel good about yourself. I do Taiji because I enjoy the feeling and it is helping me stay sane and healthy.

Note also that even though from the outside Taiji shares moves with other martial arts, Taiji requires that you stay relaxed and comfortable in your moves to get the energy flow benefits.

If you add a Taiji form to your practice, I suggest you add it with a goal of practicing this form just for its Taiji benefits. That is, do the form 100% in the Taiji spirit, not thinking too much about "cross-training". The benefits you will get from Taiji (relaxed state, good energy flow) will be naturally applied to your other forms.

Hope that helps.

Isabelle · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

Quote:

I am usually very busy and find it hard to practice. I have studied various kinds of martial arts and know alot of forms. I want to improve my forms and my technique. Does anyone else have this problem and what are some of the solutions you have found?

I usually practice the long forms twice in a row, and the shorter forms 5 or more times in a row 4 days a week. Then I rotate. This usually allows me to cover the 8 forms I learnt. I also warm up with Qi gong and or Silk reeling and practice the last move of the form I am learning.

Learning different forms can be hard at the beginning but it has helped understand tai ji.

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

Dear Isabelle,

Re: 'I usually practice the long forms twice in a row, and the shorter forms 5 or more times in a row 4 days a week. Then I rotate. This usually allows me to cover the 8 forms I learnt. I also warm up with Qi gong and or Silk reeling and practice the last move of the form I am learning.'

As a matter of interest, what are the 8 forms?

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jb

Isabelle · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

jb wrote:

Dear Isabelle,

As a matter of interest, what are the 8 forms?

Hi JB,
I learnt Yang 24, Yang 108, Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu, Wu, Tai chi Kung fu Fan, Chen Sword, a short Ba Gua and Fajin form.

Practicing them all is sometimes a problem, but it has helped me understand Tai chi better.

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

Isabelle wrote:

jb wrote:

Dear Isabelle, As a matter of interest, what are the 8 forms?

Hi JB, I learnt Yang 24, Yang 108, Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu, Wu, Tai chi Kung fu Fan, Chen Sword, a short Ba Gua and Fajin form.

Dear Isabelle,
I have learned Yang 24 & thought about 108. Did it take you long to learn? What are the benefits of 108? Would you recommend it? Did you learn it from a sifu or a DVD?

_________________
jb

jb · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 146

Is Yang 108 too long?

The reason I ask about the 108 is my understanding that it is too long, and the many repetitions are unnecesary for modern needs. I am thinking of Dr Paul Lam's opinion:

"I don't have an instructional DVD on the 108 forms. All my titles are forms that I spent many years practicing and working on them to a deep understanding. The in depth understanding unable me to present it to viewers in a clear and easy to understand way to learn.

While I started my training 32 years ago with the 108 forms, I no longer practice it. It is too long, and I don't believe the many repetitions are totally necesary especially for the modern needs (we have less time). I believe when Chen Man-Ching created his short Yang style form he gave the same reason.

I believe for Yang style, the 24 or 40 Forms are shorter and contain all essential principles.

If you have seen my forms in Yourtube, you might find the full instructional DVD have many features and instructions that can improve your tai chi.
__________________
Best Wishes
Dr Paul Lam"

Family physician and conjoint lecturer, Univ. NSW
Tai Chi for Health Programs

_________________
jb

andrey · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 234

i would stick to 108, just like Yang Luchan created it.

alain · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 65 Location: San Diego, CA

jb wrote:

I believe for Yang style, the 24 or 40 Forms are shorter and contain all essential principles.

First thing, for the purists, the short 24 form is NOT Yang style. It may look similar from the outside, but the flow of many postures is different. It's a short form designed in 1956 to promote Taiji, but is not part of the Yang family style.

Regarding the length of the form: some people say that the 13 original postures (not form) are enough to develop Taiji skills. You just need to practice then a lot.

I like Yang 108 because it is longer. With a short form, you just get the time to get in the right mood, and then the form is finished. With the longer forms, I have more time to really get into the form and get the qi flowing. The Chen masters recommend you repeat a long form a couple of times. Time permitting.

You can get a similar effect I guess by repeating a short form 4-5 times without a pause.

Now, an advanced Taiji practitioner and master like Paul Lam may be able to get the benefits faster, even with a short form. But he had to work 32 years on the long form to get there.

Isabelle · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

jb wrote:

Dear Isabelle,
I have learned Yang 24 & thought about 108. Did it take you long to learn? What are the benefits of 108? Would you recommend it? Did you learn it from a sifu or a DVD?

Hi JB,

You also asked if I feel that Yang 108 is too long.

Your question had me thinking while making the soup, peeling garlic, cutting the onion, smelling the aromas of the different veggies. I could have opened a can, it would have been "quicker" Wink

First, I don't remember how long it took me to learn 108. I learnt it with Jesse. I also use his Dvd to help when I need to reinforce a move. It is long, yes, but there are repetitions and rhythm so once you get it, you flow through it. Of course, Jesse is an excellent teacher and that helped! I think that I enjoyed 108 more than 24, I enjoyed learning 108 because you have time to settle, to walk the path. I am revisiting 24 so I shall see how I evolved with it.

It takes from around 12 minutes, quick, to 20++ minutes to do. Not that long for practice, imo. But I can see the point of wanting to teach something shorter, especially for settings where you don't have months with the students. Also, it is good when we begin tai-chi to feel we "accomplished" something in a rather short time and we can go home and continue practicing on our own.

The benefits of 108 are to learn a traditional long form, to feel the rhythm, the flow. I feel it is interesting to learn both, just to be able to compare them and then choose according to your mood or the ambiance. It's like music or painting. Do you like one style better than the other? Do you pick and choose depending on your mood and needs? Do you always listen to the same Cd?

Learning a long form builds the frame for the following long forms. Wu and Yang are very close. The forms are organic, we change and evolve, I feel they evolve with us too!

Why are you wondering about learning 108?
You could learn it for your own practice and take all the time you need. There are 3 parts in the form, the first one is short, the second a bit longer and the third longer yet.

Do you hesitate between another form, Chen? Wu?...
Good luck and keep asking for opinions, you may also look at Dvds and feel the one that speaks more to you...