The Tai Chi Healthways Discussion Board

alain wrote:

andrey wrote:If for example, I prefer keep distance from you, there is nothing you can do about bridging my defense unless you have a speed advantage.

That's where the "deception" part comes in. You are right, if you prefer to keep distance, I can't bridge the gap on my own will (with force and speed). I will have to appear weaker, make you think you have an opportunity.

The few times I played with Master Tsao, that's how it works: with a good "repel the monkey" stepping, I'm able to avoid most of his attacks. But when I try to attack, that's when he gets me 100% of the time.

That's what Sun Tzu says: if the ennemy is stronger, evade him. Buy appearing weaker, people will try to attack and put themselves in danger.

I haven't watched the videos yet, but it seems it's what Jim means also when he says you have to trap the opponent.

My 2 cents.

I supposed that is one way, but not exactly what I was talking about.

Because you are able to move your feet and get an advantage by trapping or locking an opponent, which means you make it difficult for them to move in a direction they want to move (as in escape) and have to deal with your trap or lock first. At that point you are able to use their effort against them and find their weakness.

IHTBS I guess.

alain wrote:I'll venture an answer. I have limited experience of flexible step (yet).

I can't help quoting Sun Tzu's Art of War:

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

Also, I think that direct attack doesn't work that easily in flexible steps because of the contact with the opponent. We can't rely on speed that much.

What do you think?

I think you are right. All warfare is based on deception.
Chapter 3:

故曰：知彼知己，百戰不殆；不知彼而知己，一勝一負；不知彼，不知己，每戰必殆。
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

This has been more tersely interpreted and condensed into the modern proverb:

知己知彼 百戰不殆
If you know both yourself and your enemy, you can come out of hundreds of battles without danger.

Id argue that a person spending an entire session running from you is not actually training push hands, but rather, jogging.

I in no way mean that push hands should devolve into trading broadsides, but again, you are there to engage the other guy.

Its like pushing in fixed step against someone who offers no resistance, and can only fall down. If you offer no resistance, then pull me off my feet as I push into you, bravo!

But if your just gonna be a wet noodle... then my time might be better served pushing hands with someone there to push hands.

Same thing goes for The Running Man. If hes not gonna engage ever... My advice is push with someone else, or better spend your time doing standing practice or forms.


My attitude has become somewhat cynical here having trained solo for the last 3 years... couple that with Japans penchant for raining heavily ONLY on days you plan to train on. If you plan to sleep in late and watch DVDs... could on stellar weather. But if you plan to get up with the sun and train in the park... bring galoshes.

After 3 years of that I expect youd be more guarded with your time as well...

Kuroyama wrote:Id argue that a person spending an entire session running from you is not actually training push hands, but rather, jogging.

I enjoyed that!

Kuroyama wrote:Id argue that a person spending an entire session running from you is not actually training push hands, but rather, jogging.

Nice observation Kuroyama. However, if somebody doesn't want to train push hands, you still have to. So if it's necessary you may just adapt your skill to the jogger. After all taijiquan based on book of changes

andrey wrote:
Nice observation Kuroyama. However, if somebody doesn't want to train push hands, you still have to. So if it's necessary you may just adapt your skill to the jogger. After all taijiquan based on book of changes

True enough, Andrey. Give what I suggested earlier in this thread a try to see if that helps you.

Andrey

It would be dangerous and foolish to develop a habit of following your opponent wherever he should lead you... agreed?

I dont mean to be disrespectful of anyones training choices, but again... someone that chooses not to engage ever... that doesnt require tactics... it just requires a net.

Keep in mind that if you were fighting me, and I never engaged you... the fight would be... OVER...yes?

Push hands is a demonstration of your understanding of taiji principles, and their physical expression. If the other guy isnt doing that... its less a challenge than it is a waste of both of your time. - this assumes you both to be of equal experience -

If its a less experienced opponent...perhaps this could be a good opportunity to teach him/her.

Or perhaps you should simply switch to fixed step??

In my opinion it would be a better use of time to get some good fixed step training than to get bad moving step training.

Just a last note from someone stuck halfway around the world...
The time you get to train with a good teacher is precious. You should maximize it. This means training at home, and learning in class. Dont waste time with unrelated babble and minutia. Taiji training should be fun, but there should be learning taking place... I think I will break this idea off onto another thread.

Kuroyama wrote:It would be dangerous and foolish to develop a habit of following your opponent wherever he should lead you... agreed?

It depends how you look at that. Please read Chen Zhaokui's quote about
"avoiding being passive" at the top of this thread

I dont mean to be disrespectful of anyones training choices, but again... someone that chooses not to engage ever... that doesnt require tactics... it just requires a net.

Well sad, but hardly accepted unless shown

Keep in mind that if you were fighting me, and I never engaged you... the fight would be... OVER...yes?

Push hands is not a fight. if you did not engage me in push hands I would try to create situation to engage you, but it doesn't necessarily means that I give you something you may expect from me

Push hands is a demonstration of your understanding of taiji principles, and their physical expression. If the other guy isnt doing that... its less a challenge than it is a waste of both of your time. - this assumes you both to be of equal experience

Isn't taijiquan principles consist of Yin and Yang? If one of two people chose to be passive (Yin) (for whatever reason) then other should compensate of being active (Yang). In such push hand demonstration the winner is going to be more skillful practitioner. However, if both practitioners have equal skills all victories on loses will split even.

If its a less experienced opponent...perhaps this could be a good opportunity to teach him/her.Or perhaps you should simply switch to fixed step??

We don't do flexible step push hands unless two parties are ready and agree to do so.

In my opinion it would be a better use of time to get some good fixed step training than to get bad moving step training.

I agree with you on that, but how it is related to original question?

Just a last note from someone stuck halfway around the world...
The time you get to train with a good teacher is precious. You should maximize it. This means training at home, and learning in class. Dont waste time with unrelated babble and minutia. Taiji training should be fun, but there should be learning taking place... I think I will break this idea off onto another thread.

Thanks, I have been following this suggestion since I started practicing martial arts . Hopefully when next time you come over to SD we will be able to cross our hands during push hands and share our knowledge .

andrey wrote: Hopefully when next time you come over to SD we will be able to cross our hands during push hands and share our knowledge .

Kuroyama, like Andrey said, next time you come to SD, I would like to meet you and cross hands also. I always like pushing with guys that are big and strong with experience.

I look forward to it more than both of you, I assure you. It, Rubios, Hillcrest Pizza, Gyros, Meals on Convoy Street, doorways I dont have to duck to get through, clothing in my size....... . . .

Im sorry, I got a little sidetracked there.

My key hangups about going home are:
1) The wifes spending (travel costs are doubled, wives going shopping costs...priceless)
2) I only get about a week or so off. Burn 4 of those days traveling, that leaves 3 days to adjust to the new time, and train.

I figure Id come back to work a wreck. More fatigued than when I left, and about $3000-4000 poorer.


Anyone coming to Japan?


As far as andreys previous points

* on engaging a "runner" - the premise is someone who always backs away and never even tries to hold ground. Alain explained that through deception you could entice the person to attack. I agree completely, but again, the premise is that he never does.

* on push hands being a fight - true. It is not. As much is to be learned from falling as much as being the pusher/puller. But IMO push hands is there to develop and build skills to a level where you can spar openly. IMO you should push with intent to learn as much as possible at all times. Its more than just falling or pushing.

If your just there to flail arms... hey, theres always cheerleading

What Im saying is that while push hands isnt a fight, IMO it should be treated as training for one. Take what the teacher has taught you, and show it. If you cant apply it well enough to fell your opponent, its possible you dont understand it.


* On equal skill resulting in equal wins v. losses - nope. way too many factors. One guy could have a cold, the other guy could be hung over, one girl might have had a fight with her boyfriend, the other girl might have gotten a bad haircut. Emotions, tight pants, bad shoes, hot weather, a test in ethics, a bad burrito... there are so many things that could effect practice I cant begin to start. Equal skill only means equal skill...

Kuroyama wrote:* on engaging a "runner" - the premise is someone who always backs away and never even tries to hold ground. Alain explained that through deception you could entice the person to attack. I agree completely, but again, the premise is that he never does.

I wish you could experience first hand what I'm talking about. There are a lot of crossed trained people who has good sense of distance and can use it successfully to avoid an attack... Deception ? Creating a situatiation already implies deception. Alain may share with you how during flexible step I used to attack him. It's almost impossible for me to get him unless I use deception. However, in context of our conversation it's not an issue.

* on push hands being a fight - true. It is not. As much is to be learned from falling as much as being the pusher/puller. But IMO push hands is there to develop and build skills to a level where you can spar openly. IMO you should push with intent to learn as much as possible at all times. Its more than just falling or pushing.

I'm pretty much aware about that. I'm currently at the point where I start spar applying taijiquan.

What Im saying is that while push hands isnt a fight, IMO it should be treated as training for one. Take what the teacher has taught you, and show it. If you cant apply it well enough to fell your opponent, its possible you dont understand it.

Push hands are designed to develop body reaction and sensitivity. People who had some prior fighting experience may apply those skill faster in the fight than people who didn't (considering good push hand skills)

* On equal skill resulting in equal wins v. losses - nope. way too many factors. One guy could have a cold, the other guy could be hung over, one girl might have had a fight with her boyfriend, the other girl might have gotten a bad haircut. Emotions, tight pants, bad shoes, hot weather, a test in ethics, a bad burrito... there are so many things that could effect practice I cant begin to start. Equal skill only means equal skill...

I don't why you think this way. I used to fight many years ago. A lot of my gongfu brother had equal skills. When we fought we got equal victories and losses nobody had clear advatage. However, you are right many times there were other factors involved; nevertheless, we alsways split even on the long run.

* on engaging a "runner" - the premise is someone who always backs away and never even tries to hold ground. Alain explained that through deception you could entice the person to attack. I agree completely, but again, the premise is that he never does.

I wish you could experience first hand what I'm talking about. There are a lot of crossed trained people who has good sense of distance and can use it successfully to avoid an attack... Deception ? Creating a situatiation already implies deception. Alain may share with you how during flexible step I used to attack him. It's almost impossible for me to get him unless I use deception. However, in context of our conversation it's not an issue.

on push hands being a fight - true. It is not. As much is to be learned from falling as much as being the pusher/puller. But IMO push hands is there to develop and build skills to a level where you can spar openly. IMO you should push with intent to learn as much as possible at all times. Its more than just falling or pushing.

I'm pretty much aware about that. I'm currently at the point where I start spar applying taijiquan.

What Im saying is that while push hands isnt a fight, IMO it should be treated as training for one. Take what the teacher has taught you, and show it. If you cant apply it well enough to fell your opponent, its possible you dont understand it.

Push hands are designed to develop body reaction and sensitivity. People who had some prior fighting experience may apply those skill faster in the fight than people who didn't (considering good push hand skills)

On equal skill resulting in equal wins v. losses - nope. way too many factors. One guy could have a cold, the other guy could be hung over, one girl might have had a fight with her boyfriend, the other girl might have gotten a bad haircut. Emotions, tight pants, bad shoes, hot weather, a test in ethics, a bad burrito... there are so many things that could effect practice I cant begin to start. Equal skill only means equal skill...

I don't why you think this way. I used to fight many years ago. A lot of my gongfu brother had equal skills. When we fought we got equal victories and losses nobody had clear advatage. However, you are right many times there were other factors involved; nevertheless, we alsways split even on the long run.

Kuroyama wrote: ... Emotions, tight pants, bad shoes, hot weather, a test in ethics, a bad burrito... there are so many things that could effect practice ...

Dear Kuroyama,

Regarding 'emotions'
Surely this is what we call the human condition.

Kuroyama wrote: ... One guy could have a cold, the other guy could be hung over, one girl might have had a fight with her boyfriend, the other girl might have gotten a bad haircut ...

Dear Kuroyama,

HEALTH WARNING: DRINKING ALCOHOL WHILE RUNNING IS DANGEROUS

I don't have any experience doing push-hands while hung over -- and I don't think I would try. However, when I was younger [aged approximately 30] and living in Vancouver, a bunch of us would go down to Seattle on a regular basis for fun runs. We would arrive late on Friday night, drink a few brewskis, then meet up with a some American friends and drink a few more ... then go to bed very late and ... run on Saturday morning. In my experience, I always ran a 10k faster with a hangover.

jb wrote:

Kuroyama wrote: ... Emotions, tight pants, bad shoes, hot weather, a test in ethics, a bad burrito... there are so many things that could effect practice ...

Dear Kuroyama,

Regarding 'emotions'
Surely this is what we call the human condition.

JB
It is, but we are reminded to remain calm both in training and in combat. So then the obvious "other end" of that would be that getting emotional would lead to mistakes/getting your lunch handed to you.